並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E5%90%89%E7%B1%B3%E5%93%88%E5%88%A9%E5%8B%95%E7%89%A9%E9%86%AB%E9%99%A2/ep2-%E6%A3%98%E6%89%8B%E7%9A%84%E7%8B%97%E8%B2%93%E8%85%AB%E7%98%A4%E5%88%A5%E6%80%95%E6%88%91%E5%80%91%E4%B8%80%E8%B5%B7%E9%9D%A2%E5%B0%8D-%E7%8B%97%E7%8B%97-%E8%B2%93%E5%92%AA-9KpmZTfYblU/